I'm not sure where the "nobody wants it" sentiment originated. I live in Midtown, and it would be great to see the area become a more vibrant location for quality nightlife. There's far too much NIMBY'ism in this city, and if people like that aren't simply brushed aside, this city will never progress.

LOVE IT. LOVE IT. LOVE IT... its time to bring some of the night life back into Midtown. For years there were many clubs (many of them gay... YEAH) and that area of town was really fun to be in and had great energy. I say bring it back and may it live on for years and years to come...and may it be the first of many many more to return. Give people a reason to be out and about in Midtwon. Thrive and hugely successful.

Dear Peggy, you already shut down Backstreet. I guess that wasn't good enough for you. Back off! "No one" wants to live in your generic, white-washed, suburban utopia version of Midtown. There is room for residents, restaurants, shops and clubs in Midtown. If you don't like the variety of people, place and things that make Midtown great then get in your car and drive out to some 'burb.

I have lived in midtown since 2001, 14th street thru Pine street. Although i must admit i enjoy going to the local bars and clubs in midtown. My favorite was Vickery's. I do not like the behavior of the people who come to midtown to club. they are rude, leave trash and then there is the occasional fights/gun shooting. Not generating any revenue for the neighborhood.

a great addition to p'tree --- patrick's comments are right on ---

I, for one, hope this doesn't turn into a "gay club"...not that there's anything wrong with that, but Atlanta doesn't need any more segregation. Every neighborhood is already split so decisively from a racial standpoint, that it really doesn't need to be split again with different neighborhoods for different sexual prefernces. Yes, I'm aware Midtown is considered a "gay" neighborhood. However, I don't feel like it's that prevalent unless you are nearby a few specific spots.

Atlanta needs more quality nightlife (re: not dive bars, or horrible clubs - T&G, etc.). I think this place would do well to maintain a strict door policy - like clubs in every other major city do. If you look like you're going to cause trouble, you shouldn't be allowed in. If you look like you just drove in from Kennesaw with your new t-shirt from Ed Hardy, wait in line...all night.

It would be great if Dewberry would get off theis a$$ and do something with the rest of the block (Preferably mid-rise apartments and ground floor retail)...

I am going to share a similar opinion as Urbanist, but in that I hope it doesn't become a segrated black-only club. Part of what I enjoy about Midtown, and my former home in New York, is its diversity. But I enjoy true diversity, where, when I go out I interact with white, black, straight, gay, Asian, etc. Bulldogs is not diversity. Walking into Straits at certain times and being stared at because my complexion is lighter than almost every customer in there (I'm white), is not diversity. Walking through Piedmont Park on Sunday evening and evoking a similar response, is not diversity. There are other places around town like this, and I know that, technically, I am "allowed" in these places and that it is my discomfort that keeps me out (sometimes, I have been in most of these places, despite the stares). But, my point is, that I welcome any new venue that adds to our nightlife options, but sincerely hope than no one group takes over to the uncomfortable exclusion of others. And, of course, troublemakers are not welcome anywhere in Midtown.

Another related comment: While I welcome new business coming into Midtown, I am also concerned that we are not being diverse in the types of businesses we are attracting. We are sorely lacking in "walkable" retail and I cannot understand why we are not attracting this. We have a large residential urban population in houses, condos, apartments, dorms, fraternity and sorority houses. We have a bunch of hotels and office buildings. But there are few stretches of walkable street-front stores. Clothing, books, CDs/records, jewelry, electronics, shoes, barbers, health foods, vitamins, news/magazines/candy/sundries, sunglasses, swimwear, sporting goods, bike sales/repair, ice cream, bakeries, watches, coins/stamps/hobbies, etc. I know some of these exist scattered through Midtown. But, with such a large diverse population, we lack variety of retail and any length of walkable store frontage. I've actually driven or biked to L5P or VaHi just to stroll along and window shop. Midtown keeps focusing on glamorous night clubs, martini bars, and chic restaurants. But our streetlife will never be truly vibrant until we give our residents more reasons to shop locally, get our of their cars, and maybe even just take an evening stroll to see what's going on and run into their neighbors.

BRAVO MARC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lucy:)

Diversity is definitely needed in the Midtown area. It would be nice to go to any establishment with a mixture of gay, straight, black, white, green and purple people.

But concerning why the area isn't attracting walkable retail. With the high cost of real estate/rents in the area, I strongly doubt we will see stretches of walkable street-front stores for clothing (unless very high-end), books, CDs/records, jewelry (unless high-end), electronics, shoes, barbers, health foods, vitamins, news/magazines/candy/sundries, sunglasses, swimwear, sporting goods, bike sales/repair, ice cream, bakeries, watches, coins/stamps/hobbies. Many of these are very low cost items, and one would need to sell quite a bit of merchandise in order to stay afloat. A club on the other hand can charge $20-$30/pp for entrance, plus $10/drink and be able pay the high rent, employees and still turn a profit.

Financially, the cost of doing business would be too overwhelming to even make a profit for many businesses to operate in midtown. Until the economy improves a lot, and rents decrease a bit in the midtown area, we will continue to see empty spaces and businesses going out of business in midtown.

Marc, the reason is largely due to the fact that Atlanta is not "dense" enough. Sure, there are high rises up and down Peachtree, but almost all of those high rise developments are condos. That means that a lot of the people that may be listed as owners there are actually absentee residents. I live in Midtown and rent a condo unit - and I know a lot of other people who do as well. The development of "in-town" Atlanta occured backwards of how it should have. All those high rise luxury condos should have been high rise, or mid-rise apartments, with ground floor retail. Rental units are rarely second homes. As more people come into the city and populate an area, sidewalks become more vibrant, retail does better, and then the draw for condo ownership is there (because people who live in condos typically want the urban amenity of walkable neighborhoods).

Fortunately, there's plenty of opportunity left. The block where this new nightclub will be situated could be a perfect spot for a large apartment/retail development. The lot across from The Plaza condos, the lot just to the south of Opera as well. All of those abandoned single-story, 70's & 80's vintage office around Midtown - wipe it out, readapt it, or build on the air above it. Eradicate parking lots (they're are one step shy of economicially useless, and highly destructive to the city), and replace them with mixed use apartments/retail first, then as more people come into the city, develop as demand requires.

Being a Newbie from the NE Ga region,
the Insight on the Midtown Situation Is Appreciated by Me!
Reality check...
Thanks You, ATLWassup and Urbanist.
Spose Marcs' comment was my fantasy.

Marc's comments are right on point. While Midtown deserves quality nightlife just like any other vibrant urban district it doesn't need a huge 20,000 square foot club right on Peachtree Street. That space will be dark and empty all day long adding nothing to the life on the street. Clubs should have a home in Midtown but we don't need to give away our best, most visible real estate to mega clubs that do nothing to activate the streetlevel during typical business hours. We should save that prime space for shops and cafes that have a steady stream of customers day and night. There are plenty of side streets and other locations for smaller clubs, bars and pubs.

@layne, i agree with that, but unfortunately a large club may be the only thing economically viable in that location at the moment. there was a 24 hour bar/restaurant/cafe at 10th/peachtree that couldn't stay open... how is anything else going to remain open? If you have a decent idea, there's an empty place at 10th/peachtree...

I also agree with most of the other people here that it will be unfortunate if this club segregates itself.

also, without having a 24 hour transit system, the parking lots will continue to make money and support themselves because no one has a better option for late night bars/clubs/shows/movies/etc.

I'm not sure I agree with the need for more density than what we have. Midtown is fairly dense and there are thousands of residents in the immediately surrounding walkable neighborhoods. We've got GA Tech to the west, with no streetlife in any direction around campus beside the bridge to 5th Street. They come over 5th Street to use that limited strip of retail, but it doesn't connect well with much else, so, they do not venture beyond those blocks.

The walkable areas in VaHi and L5P are surrounded by much lower density, yet there are always crowds walking those sidewalks. Atlantans crave the social street scene and folks show up when any semblance of it is provided. Perhaps the retail space owners need to re-think their rent structures and space layouts, providing lower rent space directly to the street, and putting the clubs behind that space, with just a door out to the street. Nightclubs do not need a lot of street frontage and windows. Seems to me that rented space, at low rates, yields more income than vacant space.

I think the planning in Midtown has been too idealized, with this grand vision of high-end furniture stores, etc, none of which generates street life. Lets do a reality check and put in some places we locals want to walk to with some regularity.

But, back to the topic at hand, I hope that this club becomes an asset to Midtown, and not a troublesome neighbor at odds with the rest of the neighborhood. We shall see.

Very, very well stated! I commend your views:)

That was directed @ Marc!
A totally intelligent, visionary perspective of the situation:)
Kudos'

Thanks Lucy, and all

Midtown Atlanta isn't even remotely close to dense, in the urban development sense of the word. There are countless blocks and lots that are completely empty in the "heart" of the city. That's not common in truly urban areas. "Fairly dense" doesn't support a vibrant street scene. "Fairly dense" encourages people to drive, which obviously takes people off the sidewalks and out of the street scene. True, there are thousands of residents in the surrounding areas, but that's obviously not enough. If there is never anything new happening, or in Midtown's current case, so little happening that businesses are shutting down, it makes the allure of a walkable neighborhood non-existent. More people in a smaller space = more demand. More demand = more stores (first), and higher prices (second). Higher prices = businesses that are held to a higher standard (first), and then a conglomeration of worthwhile businesses (second) that can afford to pay the rent on new construction (which is almost all of Midtown Atlanta) retail space.

There are hardly any, if any at all, businesses in new developments in this city that aren't corporate - or back by very deep pockets. Spire (a bunch of chains restaurants/retailers, save for the cleaners - which may be a chain for all I know). Metropolis (UPS, Jimmy Johns, Taco Mac - all chains). 1010 (Ra, RiRa, Piola, CB2 - all chains). Terminus (every retailer/restaurant there is a chain, or backed by deep pockets). This isn't a coincidence.

The point is, that if you're going to say "I want a vibrant, walkable city" the absolute first thing you need to do is to bring enough people into the city to make that possible. You need to bring them into close proximity with each other as well. Walking past a developed block, and then past two entirely undeveloped blocks completely ruins the notion of "walkable" city. If I wanted to walk past vacant plots of land, I'd live in the country.

Developing densely - a lot more dense than Atlanta, Doing it in a way that inspires diversity (80/20 housing, developing apartments - not condos, not making every new development "luxury", and re-adapting existing buildings), then connecting all those people with efficient forms of public transport, are the keys to successful urban environments, and Atlanta has a lot of work to do on all those fronts...

I Like what your saying Urbanist! Very worthy viewpoints!

Urbanist, I'm going to respectfully disagree with your density position. Ratios of apartments to condos to homes are nice planning tools, but, the fact is that there are many, many examples of walkable environments with lively street culture in locations with lower populations AND lower population densities than Midtown Atlanta. Portland, Burlington Vermont, Greenville, Charleston, and our neighbors downtown Decatur and the Marietta square, to name just a few. Where you are correct, and this is the entire issue, is the need for a continuous, or closely connected, engaging streetscape. Midtown's premier streetscape is an example of the problem. Walk the entire length of Peachtree from Crawford Long to Pershing Point. Most of that length is developed and there are not many vacant parking lots. But, there is a clear lack of engaging spaces that invite folks to stroll, window shop, people watch, let alone run errands and actually shop. Most other Midtown Streets are abysmally worse - Spring, W. Peachtree,10th, etc. But, where you have the few pockets of engaging streetscape, you do have some street life. Examples - the corner of Piedmont at Tenth up to Quattro, with lines at Flying Biscuit on weekends, and always a flurry of walkers and activity. Or the short block by Marlowes to Steele - seems there are always folks roaming around there. Or 5th Street from GA Tech to the Biltmore. I stand by my position that the folks are here and if you "build it, they will come".

Ran out of space, sorry for the wordiness. So, back to the point about Club Reign. We are taking an already-developed piece of prime Midtown real estate and inserting a massive 20,000 square foot club. This Peachtree Street frontage will remain dormant for most of the day and does not add any street-front retail or other engaging space. It has the same problematic effect as a vacant parking lot or a deck or a monolithic glass tower. This could have been an opportunity to provide some of the continuity of streetscape that we need. So, while I welcome new business to Midtown, I do think, as I stated above, that we need to rethink how we are using these spaces and possibly reassess rent structures. The key, simply, is that we need continuous or connected, engaging streetscape. We don't need to wait another 30 years until Midtown has Manhattan-like densities. The folks are here, they just don't have the engaging environment.

I Figured out the answer to everyone's problem.

SEND THEM TO ATLANTIC STATION.....ITS MIDTOWN'S UNDERGROUND PLAYGROUND.

Marc,

You make a good point, but the deciding difference between all of those places you mentioned, and Atlanta, is the fact that all of the walkable urban areas in those cities consist almost entirely of older buildings whose use has been re-adapted (I'm not sure about Burlington, as I've never been, but this is true for all the others). When you don't have the cost of new construction, your rent is cheaper, and you don't need to sell as much to pay your bills. Unfortunately, within Atlanta, virtually every operational building is a new building. Rents are higher, thus the reason, as I mentioned, that almost every storefront is filled by some sort of chain....which doesn't make for a walkable area. The reason the Highlands is such an enjoyable place to wander around is due to the perceived independence of the storefronts that are there...but even there, there's only enough demand to support a couple blocks worth.

I'm not talking NYC type of density, but there is far too much useless space, that needs to be developed to incorporate rental housing (with a mix of ground floor storefronts/offices). More people = more demand. More demand = more storefronts/more diversity of storefronts. That produces an inviting environment.

Urbanist,

Burlington, too, is re-use of older buildings, but, all of these spaces are the most prime real estate in their respective cities. Our prime land happens to include many new high-rise towers, but our issue is that we need to achieve a critical mass of walkable streetfront space, and use it. I agree with you that, in the long term, we need to add density. But, in the short term, we need to fill the built spaces we have, some in older buildings, some in new, with uses that attract local pedestrians. Furniture stores, martini clubs, and even cellular phone stores don't achieve this, at least not on their own. Re-open Loca Luna and don't knock down thriving businesses like McCrays. Fill Viewpoint and Spire and use the patio/sidewalk space in front of them. Fill the rest of the space in 905 Juniper, even if they make a little noise. Fill the new space on the east side of Piedmont just south of Quattro, and on the west side of Juniper across from Joes. More realistic rent structures, that don't treat these spaces like Fifth Avenue, may start attracting the right mix. I realize the economy is bad and this doesn't happen by wishing it, but, if all of these spaces fill, with the right mix of uses, we would be headed in the right direction.

Marc,

That's my point - re: adaptation of older use. When you can use an existing structure the cost basis is much lower, and therefore necessitates a lower rent to make the project economically viable. When you build new buildings, you lose this advantage. Atlanta has squandered the ability to make good use of historic buildgins over the years, by tearing them down in lieu of something new. While I understand that the area we're talking about (Midtown) used to be a largely vacuous space, and therefore HAD to have new development, the city went about it the completely wrong way by developing condos, rather than apartments, or at least a mix of apartments and condos. The condos were developed, with ground-floor retail, with the thought that the units would sell and there would be a dense conglomeration of people to provide the needed demand to support that retail. Unfortunately, a lot of the condos that did sell, sold to spec. buyers, or as second homes - thereby depriving the retail and the city of what it needs most - people.

No business is going to lease space if it doesn't make economic sense. This is why the space that is leased in all these developments is leased to chains, and that is why that area of the city's streetscape is a pretty boring walk (that, and the fact that it is constantly broken up by a vacant lot or a parking lot). Virginia Beach and Mesa, AZ are bigger cities than Atlanta is...we need a denser conglomeration of people. Period.

Well, if the Five Guys ever opens in Spire me and a few friends will make sure they stay in business ;)

I think Halo and Aurum are the kind of places that Marc is advocating for... they're both just a door in the side of a building and that's all they need to be. No need to take up half a block for a night club. They could have opened the street level to retail and opened up a rooftop/patio nightclub on the second level or something. That building may already be multiple levels anyway. There's really no incentive for them to do that though.

As for chains vs local, it would be nice to have more local shops/restaurants, but in the current state, we may need the chains to get everything going before it's economically viable for locals.

It is much better though to have a nice looking single story building even if it is a nightclub, than the horrific eyesore of that block that was there before...also, one has to consider all of the taxes that club will generate...certainly a lot more than another Mexican restaurant, hamburger joint, tapas bar, Asian or sushi restaurant, or boutique clothing store that is nearly always empty...

People conveniently forget that Midtown IS and has always been the epicenter of Atlanta gay life, although it has been on the decline in recent years....other major cities like San Diego, L.A., San Francisco, Chicago, and New York have recognizable gay districts that have been like that for decades....residents who don't like it, shouldn't move there (to Midtown) in the first place...I have absolutely NO sympathy for them...it kind of reminds me of people who move to neighborhoods near an airport and then complain about all of the noise and file protests whenever the airport wishes to expand or increase flights, etc...pretty idiotic!

I am in favor of new development in Midtown, however for those of you who don't live here you have no idea the amount of noise and trash and trouble clubs bring to what now has become a decent residential neighborhood. Try getting to sleep at night when now those of us who live in 1010midtown have to deal with the noise from Crescent STreet will now have to deal with noise from the new club. If the police can maintain the crowds and be there all the time so there are no hundreds of people outside making noise and filling the streets with trash, then I am all for it. But experience with Crescent Street tells me that cop[s will be no where as it is now. The LUX bar on the corner of Crescent and 12th causes many probelms with noise and trash, just walk around there the next morning after a Friday or Saturday night and you have no idea the noise that people make at 3 in the morning when they are walking back to get in their cars. I think the new club is a bad idea

I'm tired of people talking about Midtown like it's a residentail community. It's in the heart of the city. The more people we have in the city the more vibrant it is. Thanks to Shirley Franklin all of the midtown nightlife died. I welcome the new club. And for those of you that dont' know they will have differnt rooms of music to appease differnt types of people. So the space itself will be mixed.

Urbanist, you might be interested to know that the Park Central condos next to Einstein's and the Tuscany condos at 10th and Juniper were originally constructed as apartments and then converted to condos during the real estate boom. In reverse, Ivy Hall at Ponce and Piedmont started as condos, but are now apartments due to the complete oversaturation of the condo market by developers. Whatever the city "planned" for Midtown, the developers took over. As for all the empty street level retail, bring on the bodegas.....

I understand that, but developers only do what the city permits them to do. Condo development is a way for a developer to effectively exit an investment. Apartments require a different focus on management / upkeep / etc. I take no issue with converting an apartment into condos, as it happens when there is a demand for that type of housing, and it theoretically achieves the same goal (bringing/keeping people in dense urban areas).

However, that isn't the case with the vast majority of the condo supply in Midtown, as a lot of it was speculative. So what you're left with are huge, expensive towers, that are filled with empty units as there isn't enough demand for those condos. This doesn't provide the benefit that apartments would. It's a lot easier to rent an apartment than it is to sell a condo, which immediately increases the number of people in a given city. Apartments provide consistent turnover of residents, and typically appeal to a more diverse demographic (the affordability of rent has a much broader range than the affordability of purchase for a condo).

To James F....interesting that you just recently moved into 1010 and now are complaining about the night life. This is Midtown - nightlift was a fundamental reason Midtown was so populer for both visitors and those wanting to live here. The NIMBY new crowd shut down Backstreet, and several other clubs and venues along Peachtree street, then the condos starting going unsold. A vibrant mix of night life, retail, jobs and housing is what makes a city great, including Midtown. Suburbs are where you get the quiet and crickets. I have owned and lived in midtown for over 15 years, and there are always issues and problems, but we work thru them. the peachtree road race needlessly closes 10th street for 3-4 days, but we live with it. The marathon kills local business for nearly a full day, but we deal with it. Clubs and festivals bring in a lot of people from outside of Midtown, which helps local business, including restaurants and hotels. that helps a city, not closing them down.

I have lived in Midtown for 12 years. I think most residence would like a mix of business and would not oppose a club if it was respectful to the neighborhood and those that live in it. I am not sure how many of you who commented lived in the neighborhood when the same owners of this new club had Vision and there was a Club across the street as well (Vision was located where 1010 is now and the other large club was where the Lowes Hotel is). It was completely out of control. There were numerous shootings and people driving all around the neighborhood just cruising with extremely loud music thumping from their car and creating traffic jams not to mention all of the trash left behind. That is the situation those who live in the neighborhood remember and do not want repeated. Very few people who lived in the neighborhood attended these clubs. The clubs were attended by people who drove in from all over, which is not that of an urban setting. It became like the club setting was in Buckhead several years early with the same cruising and shootings to where they closed most of those clubs as well. If the owners of this club can create something that is diverse and controlled where the residence of Midtown would like to attend as well, I am all for it; but if it ends up like the previous clubs, it may bring revenue to the city but bring havoc to the neighborhood and the only people attending it will not be residence of Midtown.

Not in favor of a repeat of the past, but can't help but comment to the complainant of 1010 that you might have spent an evening in the neighborhood BEFORE you bought. Of course this is not to make light of the noise to come, but you can't complain about the noise that existed BEFORE you bought property a few feet from a nightlife zone.

To JAX, MCB, and Midtown Blues:

JAX, yes Midtown is a hub of gay activity and I don't think anyone here is complaining about that. I think the gay culture is part of the fabric of Midtown, but it is not a gay-only community, nor should it be. I think points made here are that all groups are welcome, but, more inclusive places, rather than exclusive places are preferable in a diverse urban setting.

MCB, yes, Midtown is the heart of the city, but it also includes a residential component. Most folks that live here do so because it has a vibrant mix of uses, including retail and nightlife (as well as parks, arts, office, hotels, universities, etc). But, that does not mean residential is unimportant; the residential folks have a vested interest in the quality of life here and their opinions should be heard and considered.

Midtown Blues, I agree with your point that those who move to a location with an established character should be cognizant of that character when making the decision to move there. However, 1) Midtown is not a "nightlife zone" it is a diverse area of the city that includes nightlife, sharing the neighborhood with many other users and 2) just because folks arrived after clubs were here does not mean that they should accept anything and everything associated with nightclubs. What I am reading is not an objection to night clubs, its deserved concern over associated crime, violence, and excessive late-night noise and traffic.

I am very impressed with the articulation and diversity of views. As a developer and a landlord we face trials everyday related to reality and perception; unfortunately history shows us how close the two are correlated. I too have been a resident of Midtown for several years and am proud to be part of the development profession that has allowed Midtown to excel into a community of culture and commerce.

Who is to say what effect this new club will have on the local environment but history does not paint a very nice picture. The possibility of this club opening has literally scared-off a significant number of retailers that would have otherwise provided the streetscapes that so many of you describe.

As a landlord we have spent a great deal of time focusing on creating a diverse retail, pedestrian friendly environment. The future success of our community depends upon its diversity but the perception of safety, cleanliness, value of investment and opportunities for growth play a very large role. The harsh reality is that this proposed night club proposes a genuine threat to that success.

Most of these boutiques are local operators and they are very well aware of the negative environment generated by large night clubs. The first question most aften asked is the status fo the proposed club closely followed by how can the city let this happen if they want retail to grow?

I'm a bit in between here. While I agree that it is entirely possible for this club to create a problem for the neighborhood, I stand by my opinion that, if they control their door, there won't be a problem. If you can't get in, you're not going to be hanging around.

What I don't agree with is the notion that a "significant" amount of retailers have avoided opening up shop because this new club will be opening. First, there is very little available retail in the immediate vicininty of this club. Second, there is plenty of vacant retail in greater Midtown, that has been vacant for a while. If there were a "significant" number of retailers who wanted to open in midtown, but now have decided against it, because of this club, they would have done it a while ago.

The reason retailers aren't fighting over each other to open up space in Midtown is because there isn't strong enough foot traffic. I've said it before, but in order to generate the kind of foot traffic that retailers want, you need dense residential (rental, because condo clearly doesn't work). If you wonder why we don't have more of this, look to the developers. There are swaths of land that are parking lots and potential redvelopment sites that could be used for this type of development. Instead, companies like Daniel want to build office on those sites, in a city that needs anything but office, instead of the residential that the neighborhood needs. Steve should be pretty familiar with this...

@Urbanist: Regarding your statement "I stand by my opinion that, if they control their door, there won't be a problem."

Door control is not the issue. What happens to a club full of patrons at 3 AM when the bar shuts down? They hit the streets and, if the history of Vision and Club Rivera have taught us anything, they will congregate on sidewalks, in streets and in parking lots to continue the party. Disturbance of the peace aside, how can we fail to remember the early morning shootings that occurred outside both these clubs after closing for the night?

like I stated before, I am all for development and a mixure of development. However, we know from the past that when these mega clubs get built and open they bring in many people outside of Midtown and really don't cater to the Midtown residents. They usually are not controlled outside of the building therefore it sets up a very negative environment for noise, trash and all sorts of trouble. For those who dont get in, they are the first to start trouble, they don't live in the neighborhood and therefore don't care about trashing the neighborhood. A good example of that is LUX on the corner of 12th and Crescent. Take a walk the next morning and you will find trash all over the place left from that bar. There needs to be control both from the owners of any bar and the police. People should not be able to just hang out if they can't get into the bars. For those of you who don't live in Midtown near these clubs, you have no idea the amount of trash left behind, flyers, cups and many "small" liquor bottles that I imagine the patrons consume before they enter the clubs. I lived in NYC for 20 years and that is one good exmple of residential and club life. There are many bouncers and police to control both the crowds trying to get into the clubs and those who either don't get in or are leaving. No one is allowed to leave the club with a drink in their hands, that is not the case or my experience with the clubs on Crescent Street. All I ask for is control to avoid trouble

@Joe/James. I think you missed the point. By controlling your door, you control the type of people that come in your door, and subsequently exit your venue at 3 a.m. If you're controlling your door, and only allowing non-trouble making individuals in your club, then you won't have a gang of trouble-making individuals leaving your club. In ever city I've ever been to, the clubs that control their door and have a policy, rarely, if ever, seem to have a problem.

@James, you're right, re: NYC clubs. You're right, because the control the bouncers exercise is over who gets in. I lived in NYC for several years myself, and used to do the club thing every once in a while. The decent clubs never had undesirable crowds, and at worst, a bad club would have too much Jersey trash (Opera, and T&G manage to pull this off, I don't know how). Either way, they had policies like girl:guy ratios, attire requirements (that went beyond sneakers), etc. All of these things, while seemingly superficial, keep bad elements out. There is no reason this place can't be an accretive addition to the neighborhood...they just have to maintain a decent clientele.

@Urbanist. I think you missed the point. With the recent history of mega clubs Vision and Club Riveria so clear in resident's memories, there's little to give hope that Club Reign will not affect quality of life issues for our neighborhood any differently than they did.

Well, if Vision & Riveria would have had strict door policies, you wouldn't have had the "quality of life" issues in the first place. That is the point.

I am glad to see so much creative banter. for the record we have had several and by that i mean close to a dozen local retailers pass on our project. Although the club is not the only reason, it is brought up in every case. Perception or reality, people look at these mega clubs as a negative.

Addressing the other comments, there seems to be some debate over the clientel and how to ensure you have the best crowd as patrons. History shows us that it does not matter. The majority of traffic problems, criminal activity and public safety issues did not rise from what was going on within the club but rather the periferral crowd that cruises the area.

On a somewhat sadder note, our city police force is not equiped to handle clubs of this size; another historic fact. The police are actually reducing their beat patrols as we speak so as the crime statistics continue to rise, the city continues to add challenges for all of us.

Well it will be up to us that live in the neighborhood to complain and complain often, I know myself will be on that phone each and eveynight I here noise where I can't enjoy living or sleeping. It is a shame that we have to complain, but if we don't, our property values will continue to fall and no one other than party goers will want to move to the neighborhood. I encourage everyone to get on the phone each and every night that we hear unwatned noise or see unwanted behavior outside the club.

@ James. you are encouraged by the neighborhood police to call 911 anytime you feel there is someone breaking the law whether it is the patrons outside or the noise coming from inside. Jut remember you do live in an alleged city so remember the sounds are are differnt than the sounds in Suwanee.

MCB for your information and clarity, I have always lived in a city, and very aware of city noise, I don't consider yelling outside a club and blarring music coming from cars normal city noise.

@Steve,
The club problem can be handled by maintaining a door. Nobody cruises up and down that stretch of Ptree as it is, and they wont after that club opens, if there's no reason to be in the area. If that type of unsavory crowd can't get into the club, there is no reason to be in the neighborhood. There is not reason a club can't be an accretive addition to a neighborhood and surrounding businesses...it just has to control its clientele.

The larger problem is that developers, in their singular vision, are turning Atlanta into a messy conglomeration of unsuitable projects that damage our neighborhood (Downtown Atlanta is a perfect example of this). Your group, Daniel, is in the process of clearing a lot in a prime location, and then waiting for a "suitable tenant" to develop the space into office/hotel. I cannot think of a worse thing for the neighborhood than that. Atlanta's office supply is 20+% vacant, the Loew's is struggling, and the Palomar just had to hand over it's property to a Marriott, and you want to develop office and hotel. In the meantime, Midtown languishes, and businesses stuggle, because there isn't a critical mass of people in the neighborhood. Atlanta needs urban apartments, and your group could do that. The CITY of Atlanta needs denser conglomerations of people, not buildings that will sit idle 16 hours a day. People are the key to successful cities, build to suit office buildings are not.

Urbanist, I agree somewhat about Midtown being a messy conglomeration of unsuitable projects. But, you are way off the mark with your statement that "nobody cruises up and down that stretch of Ptree as it is..." Peachtree Street in Midtown is cruising central. I'm not sure where they all come from or head too, but walk along Peachtree anywhere in Midtown, from the Fox, through 10th Street, and past Colony Square on a Friday or Saturday night and you will find the street lined with folks cruising.

I think developers need to be more creative with Midtown and not keep regurgitating the same products. I think they need to get over the fascination with a Peachtree Street address. Perhaps that would have saved from demolition the attractive building on the northeast corner of Peachtree at North, which was demolished even though there are several vacant lots within a block of the site. Now that site is a vacant lot as well. They need to fill the empty spaces and connect the blocks off of Peachtree. Great cities have width as well as length. Great cities build new next to old, they don't keep erasing and starting over. Buildings should not turn their backs to side streets, lining them with parking, walls, dumpsters, kitchen vents, etc. All streetscapes surrounding and new building should be active. Density may be a worthwhile long-term goal, but I think connecting the spaces will have more benefit, more quickly, than waiting decades for population shifts into Midtown.

Right On The Mark! Marc